EP # 111 Toxic femininity is it really bad?

Robb:

And welcome to another show of Don't Get This Twisted. I am Rob along with my co-host as always, Tina. How you doing, Tina?

Tina Marie Garcia:

doing great. Robbie just got off the bike and I'm ready to do our podcast.

Robb:

Ready to pod, very good.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Ready to

Robb:

It's

Tina Marie Garcia:

pod. Yeah,

Robb:

not

Tina Marie Garcia:

it was

Robb:

too

Tina Marie Garcia:

a good day.

Robb:

bad of a day here.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Right? It wasn't like steamy hot.

Robb:

Mm-mm.

Tina Marie Garcia:

It's humid but it's not steamy hot.

Robb:

Well, it's good because this weekend supposed to be in the 90s. So enjoy

Tina Marie Garcia:

Uh...

Robb:

it. Enjoy it all

Tina Marie Garcia:

good.

Robb:

you can because it's going to get hot again.

Tina Marie Garcia:

It's okay, I need some pool time. I didn't get a good grip on my suntan for the summer, so...

Robb:

Oh, well, time to get a grip.

Tina Marie Garcia:

I'm getting a grip!

Robb:

Alrighty. So I was going through the lists of shows that people have said things about, and this was one of them from a friend of mine down the street, she said we should talk about toxic femininity. And I had an idea of what it was, but this is kind of just makes it a little more concrete.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

So I'm gonna give you the definition that I found on the interweb. Let's go over here. Boom, boom, boom. Okay, so this right here says toxic femininity is a term that refers to the harmful effects of conforming to or enforcing traditional gender stereotypes for women. It can manifest as being cooperative, passive, sexually submissive, gentle, and pleasing to men. Toxic femininity can be imposed by the patriarchal societies or by individual women.

Tina Marie Garcia:

So in other words, you have to be an asshole in order for you to not have toxic feminine, I refer to

Robb:

He...

Tina Marie Garcia:

be toxic, like I don't understand.

Robb:

This is very similar to like how you would say toxic masculinity. All the things that we see in men like being the strong one and doing the man things. This is basically doing the female traditional roles that have worked for thousands of years.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

So I guess being like a regular woman in today's society is being toxic.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Well, all right. I think that's

Robb:

Yeah,

Tina Marie Garcia:

stupid.

Robb:

yeah, I would have to kind of agree with that statement.

Tina Marie Garcia:

You know, they're in a relationship. There has to be someone that at times takes charge and another person who kind of is, I don't want to say the backup dancer, but like somebody who takes a more like a supportive role. And in relationships, that's really how it works. Not. two people can't be all like, it's gonna be this way or no way, nothing gets accomplished that way.

Robb:

Correct, and I think traditional gender roles work for 98% of this planet.

Tina Marie Garcia:

right?

Robb:

So this is kind of the, I'll give you a little more things. Like it says passiveness, if you're nurturing, which is crazy, compliance, submissive, if you're cooperative, if you're sensitive, if you're polite. if you have empathy or compassion or you're home and family oriented. Which.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Are you serious?

Robb:

Yeah.

Tina Marie Garcia:

That's what it's saying?

Robb:

Mm-hmm, on this website. You'll be able to find this one in the show notes when you click, there will be a link for this webpage. It says, to be clear, there's nothing at all wrong with having all of these traits. They only become toxic when you feel forced to express them or you're suppressing your own needs in... because of them. So basically they're saying there's nothing wrong with them per se, but I think a lot of it has to do with where you're saying that women have to be like this, because they're saying it's very misogynistic. Where, you know, like I said, things like this have worked for thousands and thousands of years.

Tina Marie Garcia:

I was gonna say there are traits in there that are solid for being a good parent like nurturing or compassionate or... You said a bunch of them, I can't remember.

Robb:

Cooperative, like

Tina Marie Garcia:

Cooperative.

Robb:

I can't believe that cooperative, shouldn't you, if that is toxic, we're in a lot, a lot

Tina Marie Garcia:

Lot

Robb:

of trouble.

Tina Marie Garcia:

of trouble. Yeah. Because somebody needs to, like I said, take more of a backseat when it comes to making decisions. Not that not that women shouldn't make decisions. I'm not saying that.

Robb:

No, both

Tina Marie Garcia:

I'm just

Robb:

should have a backseat.

Tina Marie Garcia:

I'm saying that sometimes, you know, it's okay to let somebody lead in dancing. It works in life. It should work. I mean, I don't get this whole toxic bullshit, to be honest with you. And I hear it all the time. I'm like, really? That seems to be the go-to slogan for any woman that wants to down her man. And, and truly I hear it a lot because of doing hair, you know, they're sitting in front of me and they're telling me about how he's this and he's that. And I'm like, Ooh, that sounds kind of hot. You know, he sounds like a

Robb:

Right.

Tina Marie Garcia:

guy, you know, sounds like he's got a pair. But at the same token, you know, I. I get where women think that it's like, it's too much, it's too this or too that. I don't think anything is too much. I just think there's various degrees of it. But I kind of like a man to be the man.

Robb:

Well, and I think that most of that wording would come out of a woman's mouth that if they say that that's a toxic woman. because

Tina Marie Garcia:

it.

Robb:

the they would be a modern version of women where they think that being any of those things are like, are going to be a bad thing, like cooperative or submissive. If you say that at all, I would say that it's coming out of a woman's mouth because men are not going to say that men want all this stuff. Men want women, they want

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

somebody who's, you know, look, you can't, neither sex can be rolled over. No one I don't want a woman who if I just say, do this, she's gonna do it all the time. Because that's not how real relationships work

Tina Marie Garcia:

Right.

Robb:

or real people or societies work at that. This little webpage here has a couple of examples. It says some real world examples. A teacher tells you to act like a lady when you show assertiveness. So like if you're. that would be like a real world thing. Like if you're very assertive, someone should say you should really act like a lady. Now, I think that's also context, right?

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

Like I think there is a place to act like a lady and there's also a place to act like a gentleman.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

I think both of those walk hand in hand. Like you can be assertive, and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that, but to say that you should act like a lady, there are places you should act like a lady. So I think that's kind of, I don't know.

Tina Marie Garcia:

You know, I was always kind of told that I was too much, you know, too. I because I could do pretty much everything for myself and did and did it well and raised a child and I didn't need a lot of help. Like I was so involved that I didn't need tons of help from my now ex. He he kind of took a back seat to, you know, the child rearing and he didn't. We didn't have him do any of the discipline because our child was not ours. We adopted her. So she came with a lot of problems and we needed to be sensitive to that.

Robb:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Marie Garcia:

So he in that situation took more of a backseat approach. But he was still a dad that was there. He would tell her things. He would show her things. He was, he would tell her that's not how you act. He did that, but when it came to the actual discipline, he let me do it. So does that make me domineering or does that make me toxic because I, we chose together how we were gonna raise her and how we were gonna do it. And I had to take the forefront on that because of her situation. And I think we did all right by it, you know?

Robb:

Right?

Tina Marie Garcia:

I don't know, like. I like when a man kind of has his shit together and could take control. I like when he gets in the, when I go to get in the car and he opens the door for me. I like that. I like that he'll drive. I like that he worries about our security or our safety. I mean, I guess that could be toxic, but I don't see it. Like how is that a bad thing? I think in this, I believe in this world right now that you guys are living in geyser. taking a big shit sandwich every day and having to eat it because they can't win. And if you're white, you really can't win. And if you're this, you really can't win. But I just, I don't know. We do come from a different generation for sure.

Robb:

We do.

Tina Marie Garcia:

But I think, I think people are making this to be a reason to blame men rather than to deal with their own bullshit.

Robb:

Well, but on the flip side of that, I think what this is trying to say, because I mean, obviously, toxic masculinity can be seen different ways. This, I think, is more of, I mean, I think they're both. They're more of a traditional outlook. Like, here's one of the other real-world examples, which is probably very prevalent. It says, a parent who continually pressures you to have children because that's what women do. I think that's like, again, like context is everything. I think in most societies, yes, you know, having kids is how we keep things going. And I think that that's just how. You know our parents grew up and every generation before that our generation is probably the first ones who kind of skated away from Like it's okay not to have children and it is okay not to have children, but I don't think there's anything wrong with

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

Hey Like any kind of pressure isn't good, but I think that is what women do women do have children. That's how we stay Connected and going forward so

Tina Marie Garcia:

populated.

Robb:

Yeah, or here's another, I'm gonna give a couple of real worlds, because it will bounce. I'll kind of want to hear what you think. It says, an acquaintance who says you haven't found love because men find your confidence intimidating. So basically trying to tell the woman, hey,

Tina Marie Garcia:

I've been told that.

Robb:

don't be so confident because men aren't gonna find that we find it intimidating. Do you

Tina Marie Garcia:

I've

Robb:

think

Tina Marie Garcia:

been

Robb:

that

Tina Marie Garcia:

told

Robb:

that's...

Tina Marie Garcia:

that. Well,

Robb:

I don't think,

Tina Marie Garcia:

here's,

Robb:

again, I

Tina Marie Garcia:

here's.

Robb:

also don't think that's toxic.

Tina Marie Garcia:

I don't think it's toxic either, but here's my here's my example. I was dating my ex and we had kids staying at the house and one of his friends was so aggressive with this with this 10 year old. He made the 10 year old pee his pants. Well, I walked in on the very end of it and I went after the guy like I was. You know, mama bear. And I was going to fight with this guy because the stuff was coming out of his mouth. He deserved to get popped upside the head. And I was reaching for him. I was, and my ex had to hold me back and call me down and tell me that's, you know, that's not going to happen. It was going to happen though. It was, but, um, at the end, he told me that was one of the reasons that he fell in love with me because I would go toe to toe to do what was right and to save a child from someone who was being abusive. So he didn't he didn't find that as negative as what he probably should have because I was kind of losing my shit but if you make a 10 year old pee their pants because you're so mean to them like they're quivering and fear you're

Robb:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Marie Garcia:

an asshole you deserve somebody to come up and call bullshit and say do you want to be treated the way you're treating this kid because i'm here to do it

Robb:

Right, look, I- There's toxic on both sides that can be bad.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm

Robb:

And I think that there should be things called out, but I think that in what we're trying to say is being a traditional woman toxic. I think that's, in real world scenarios, I don't believe so. I think... You know, we live in a social media bubble where

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

the independent, strong woman, okay? Now, what is that going to do for you? I've seen so many things, like videos on Instagram where people are like, oh, I'm strong and independent but no man wants to date me. So...

Tina Marie Garcia:

That's bullshit.

Robb:

Well, no, but I think there's something to that as well. Like, if a man is... You never hear like, I'm a strong independent man. Why not? Why don't you hear that? Why don't we hear that in society?

Tina Marie Garcia:

because men are expected to be strong and

Robb:

Correct.

Tina Marie Garcia:

independent? Yeah.

Robb:

And so... Is that really something to be proud of? I don't think you should have to jump up on the buildings and say it as a woman either. Be strong and independent, that's awesome. But I think that there's nothing also wrong with saying, hey, I'm strong and independent and I can do this, but I still wanna have a family. Or I still want to, you know, when I get into a relationship, I still want for him to play the man role of this. Like... Like we've talked about it before, like if I'm in a relationship with somebody and I hear a noise during the middle of the night, I'm not telling her to go do it.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

So is that being too submissive? Or should she jump up and go do it? So my thing is like, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You have to be very careful of what we're talking about. Like it says, here's another real world example. It says a social media influencer who says, real women have curves. So when, I can see where they're coming from with that one. Like not all women have curves. That doesn't make them any less of a woman. So I think where I can see that where that could have some kind of backlash of, or what you think, or, or let's say a muscular chick like a super buff, like, bodybuilder chick. I think it's to each their own. When it comes to things like in the real world when it comes to that. But I think all of them can still have traditional value.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Absolutely. And there's a reason that traditional values have been around for as long as they have is because it works. It plays on the strengths of both a man and a woman. It's

Robb:

Right.

Tina Marie Garcia:

not to say that that's the only thing they could do. It just plays on the strengths.

Robb:

Yeah, I think it's, if toxic femininity is just being feminine. going forward, there's going to be bigger problems. Like one of these says, criticizing female celebrity for having hair on her legs and underarms. Look, if again, I think it's what we've. seen in modern society, at least in this country, where that is frowned on. So I don't think it's toxic if you call someone out for it. If it's not your thing, more power to you. But I think that comes down to like,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

I don't think that's being toxic. That's like going, if I was like, oh, like, you know, that guy over there is too heavy. I don't think I'm being toxic. I'm just having an opinion of what I see. It's up, you know, I don't have to live in his shell. So, I,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

maybe I just see things different when it comes to that. I don't think every guy has to be buff either. I think that there's something to still being, you know, the role of a person is different than how they look. I guess that could be seen as toxic. I don't see it that way. This one says a manager or colleague who not so subtly suggests you wear more makeup at the office. I don't know how to handle that one. I guess if you don't wanna wear makeup at the office, you don't have to. The girl

Tina Marie Garcia:

Well,

Robb:

at my

Tina Marie Garcia:

in...

Robb:

new boss, she doesn't wear much makeup.

Tina Marie Garcia:

And yet in my field, like it's frowned on to not wear makeup. Like

Robb:

Right.

Tina Marie Garcia:

it, because of the industry it's in. So makeup

Robb:

So

Tina Marie Garcia:

gets put on every day because

Robb:

would

Tina Marie Garcia:

it should.

Robb:

you see that as being toxic though? If someone came up to you and said, you probably should wear more makeup. I don't see that, I mean, maybe because the stereotype of women since the 20s has to put on a full face before you go somewhere every day. Shit, in the 40s and 50s, men wore suits to go shopping at the grocery store.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

You wore a suit and a hat every single day. The only time you didn't wear a hat was on the weekends when you were going to the beach or going for some kind of event. If anything else, you were in a suit and a tie and your wife was in a dress.

Tina Marie Garcia:

All right.

Robb:

And generally a hat, like if you looked at the like 50s, hats were the big thing, so everyone had a damn hat on.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Right.

Robb:

But even your children, your female children had a nice summer dress on, and your boys had a collared shirt and pair of slacks. So I think basically what these toxic things are being very... traditional in the forms of what modern society has been built on. And ah man, I think it's, we're very much at odds with modern society and modern progressive thinking.

Tina Marie Garcia:

To me it feels like this generation has picked up everything that has worked for- Generations and flipped it upside down and said no, it's all bad. And now we have to do the opposite I feel like you know how

Robb:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Marie Garcia:

we used to have backwards day in school and you'd have to wear like your clothes or whatever backwards

Robb:

Right.

Tina Marie Garcia:

It feels like that and it was stupid then and it's kind of stupid now You know, I am I don't um, I don't like the way things are going now And I think because everybody's making such a big deal. Listen, if you don't want to be If you don't want to be feminine, don't.

Robb:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Marie Garcia:

If you don't want to be masculine, don't. Or if you do, do it. Like, it shouldn't be bad or good or anything. You are who you are.

Robb:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Marie Garcia:

And if you want to be in a relationship, you'll find somebody who will balance you out, period.

Robb:

Correct.

Tina Marie Garcia:

This whole, you have to be this, you can't be that. It's... Who in the hell is making up these rules, first of all?

Robb:

Well,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Because

Robb:

I-

Tina Marie Garcia:

they're kind of... idiotic.

Robb:

I don't think, again, yes, be whatever you'd like. But consequences come with that.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

If you're a feminine woman and you get someone who's a feminine male, you can't bitch when the man things don't get done and vice versa. If you're a masculine male and you're find someone who isn't going to fit the more feminine role You can't complain when She's not being feminine It's like if you if you meet a girl and you go out on a date, let's say And she's very upfront and says I wear jeans and sneakers every day You can't bitch two months from now and be like, can you wear a dress and heels? Because that's kind of what I like. Well, no, you can't do that. You have to be upfront from the beginning and say, look, I like a very feminine young lady. And like, that's what I would say. I'm, like, I don't mind people who are very chill, or I guess, because chill can still be feminine. But I do want a girl who

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

is feminine, who... you know, wants to feel good about herself and wants to be like a girl, a girly girl. There's, but that's, I think, because that's how we've all grown up. Like, every, everything that we saw on in movies and TV and how we were supposed to be is, has been ingrained in our head. So,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

um. So here's a couple of other common signs of toxic femininity to pay attention to. In yourself, Tina, or

Tina Marie Garcia:

Hehehehe

Robb:

others, because this isn't for me, feeling you should always have a male partner even if you don't particularly want a relationship. Well,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm.

Robb:

yes,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Obviously.

Robb:

obviously. I mean, if you don't want that, don't have it.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-mm.

Robb:

But... I mean, I think that, again, it's going to be pushed by society. And generally, why aren't you in a relationship? Because people, you know, look, freedom is great, and I'm not in one. And that's because we've talked about it a few times, like... it's gonna have to be something very good for me because there's things I don't need because I've been single for so long, I don't think I need certain things. Like

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

I don't need a dishwasher or I don't need someone to clean my house or I don't need someone to cook my food. It's all great to have because I think those are great attributes because I know that my cooking's very basic but I've had other people's cooking that was really good. So

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

would I prefer someone who's a better cook? Of course. I don't need that to survive. I need feminine touch and feminine talking to and the mind. So I can get that, but I think that there's, you know, you don't, I don't think you're incomplete if you don't have a male partner, but I think that in society we do complete each other. So maybe that's how I see it. I don't know.

Tina Marie Garcia:

I just think that some people are good at some things and others are good at others and you find your balance as a mate. I mean, it doesn't have it. The label of it's a male role or it's a female role is kind of stupid because at this point in the game, everybody could do everything. I've seen dads that are that are fathers that do everything because the women checked out on them. I see the same of women that have to do the same thing and men checked out. It's not that we can't do it. I mean, we're smart enough that we've evolved that we could take care of things when we have to, but that doesn't mean we slight, we slight everybody because we can. It just means you have more to bring to the table. You're more of somebody that could be relied on or dependable or somebody that could hold their own and I think in this day and time that's what the attraction should be. This person could handle their selves. They could, they're okay to do it if I can't, you know, because there's not, you can't do everything you need to do every given day. But if you have that support, if you have somebody next to you that will fill that time with you, then that's a good thing. I don't know, I think that people have taken everything that everybody is way out of line and out of context and made it an issue. And there really isn't an issue to have. You know, I ride a Harley. Okay, I put on, you know, my gear, get on a bike and do I look like a girl at that point? I wear makeup because I wear makeup every day, but probably not. You know, I look like another person just riding a bike guy or girl. Nobody knows helmets on. Um, but my nails are done. I've been doing my nails since I was 17. I go and get them done every two weeks. It's what I like. And again, I still wear makeup. I still do my hair. I still, I was wearing, I was wearing a bright pink jacket today on the bike. So, you know, the, the fluidity of, of who men and women could be has changed over the years. But that doesn't that doesn't necessarily mean that one's good and one's bad. And I think that that's where life is headed. You know, men are just taken, taken a beating. And they're not being anything different than what they were raised to, to be.

Robb:

Well, women either though. I think that's kind of the point of this is that toxic femininity isn't bad. It's, well, again, it's made this place go for hundreds and thousands of years, so I

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

don't know. Here's another one, judgment or shame for not having children. Look,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

I don't think there should be judgment or shame, but I think for me, and again, I think most of the people who are saying that are people who have children, so they know what they've got from it.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

You know,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Well,

Robb:

oh.

Tina Marie Garcia:

there's a lot of people because of our diet and everything else is going on in society right now They can have kids I was one of those people tried

Robb:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Marie Garcia:

but couldn't but I hear that wait You couldn't have your own kids like what was wrong with you? Nothing was wrong with me suck I just you know good it didn't work It wasn't meant to be like there is a higher power that kind of is in control here. You know, it's not all It's not a problem always

Robb:

Correct.

Tina Marie Garcia:

And I have dealt with that in the family, but

Robb:

Well,

Tina Marie Garcia:

like,

Robb:

here's

Tina Marie Garcia:

yeah,

Robb:

another

Tina Marie Garcia:

it didn't

Robb:

one,

Tina Marie Garcia:

happen.

Robb:

because like I said, most of these are going to come off of you because this is about femininity. It says, sacrificing

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

your health to fit societal expectations for women, says, you know, try an overly restrictive diets, investing in procedures that are risky or beyond your budget, or otherwise going to extreme lengths to meet society's beauty standards.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Well,

Robb:

Um.

Tina Marie Garcia:

if you want to come up short, you definitely want to go that route because nobody fits those standards. I mean, every picture you see in a magazine is airbrushed. Nobody, not even JLo who's got her ass on everything is perfect.

Robb:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Marie Garcia:

So if you want to if you want to go for that. like good luck but you better have a good plastic surgeon and there's gonna always be something and when you're done you didn't fix the inside so now you gotta work on that

Robb:

Yeah, I look, I think that there's a side to both of those. Look.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

diets are what they're gonna be. People are always going to do them. Don't hurt yourself, obviously. Investing in procedures, I think that that's also, if it makes you feel better, I'm assuming they're talking about maybe getting boobs or lipo, whatever. That's also a thing that'll make you feel better and if it makes you feel feminine, more power to you. Just be safe, get a good doctor. That's how

Tina Marie Garcia:

And

Robb:

I

Tina Marie Garcia:

then

Robb:

look

Tina Marie Garcia:

they're

Robb:

at

Tina Marie Garcia:

calling,

Robb:

it.

Tina Marie Garcia:

you know, they're calling the stuff that women are getting a mommy makeover. That

Robb:

Yeah,

Tina Marie Garcia:

seems

Robb:

well...

Tina Marie Garcia:

a little toxic. Mommy makeover? Like, come on.

Robb:

But I think it's because what children do to you. Like

Tina Marie Garcia:

Yeah.

Robb:

my ex-wife had a tummy tuck after my son. She had already had two kids that were way older. My son did a number on her. She wanted to be fixed, so she did. I wouldn't pass judgment for not doing it, but I definitely wouldn't pass judgment for doing it.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Yeah.

Robb:

Here's one for you. Putting men's needs and desires before your own. So putting your needs and feelings in order to accommodate a male partner, colleague, family member. For example, you might agree to do something you don't want to do for a coworker, so you seem polite and easygoing. Again, societal. I think we all do that in some fashion. I don't think, again, I don't think it's toxic. I think that men put a lot of their needs and desires before theirs when it comes to...

Tina Marie Garcia:

Yeah, we just did a show about suffering in silence.

Robb:

Yes, so.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Because they're expected to do certain things.

Robb:

And I don't think that there's anything wrong with saying, hey, I wanna make sure, I'll give you an example. If I'm in a marriage and we need to cut back somewhere and it sounds something I wanna do because my lady wants to get a procedure done, should I put my needs and desires? out of touch so she can get something done to make her feel better? Yeah, why not? I don't think there's anything wrong with putting anyone's needs or desires before yours. It just has to be reciprocated. It has to be both ways. And if that's toxic femininity, again, we're going in a very, very bad way.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

Here's one, downplaying your capabilities, pretending you don't know how to do something or aren't physically capable of something, especially in an effort to avoid emasculating a man. Plays to precede feminine weakness. Uh, okay. I think that that's a dangerous thing to do on both sides. Do you wanna emasculate your man? Probably not a good idea. because

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-mm.

Robb:

the next thing you know, you'll be doing everything on your own. So

Tina Marie Garcia:

Right?

Robb:

it's a two-way street. I don't wanna be emasculated at all. And I also don't wanna make you feel like you're being masculine. Why would you wanna do that? Again, we fit certain things. I'm not saying you can't fix your fucking tire. Do you wanna do it?

Tina Marie Garcia:

No.

Robb:

Because if you do,

Tina Marie Garcia:

I...

Robb:

you're gonna do it all the time. Because I'm gonna sit back and go, now you can do it lady, good luck. Cheers.

Tina Marie Garcia:

I had that happen to me. I was on the freeway and got a flat tire. I was with one of my male friends and I called, you know, I called AAA and he's sitting there You could tell he was like chomping at the bit But he didn't know how to say he would do it without I don't know triggering me or something and I looked at him I said we could fix this and like way less time, right? And he's like, yes Let's do it and he jumped out

Robb:

Yeah.

Tina Marie Garcia:

of the car and before I could do anything He had it done like seriously as quick as

Robb:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Marie Garcia:

can be As a matter of fact, they somebody even pulled over that's supposed to like get you off the freeway if you're on the freeway and they're supposed to get you off so that you're safe. That that kid watched him put the tire on so quickly and we were on the road. It was it was great. And I and he apologized. He said, see, I hear you are helping me and now you have this problem. And I'm like, problem. I said, this is a problem. I was helping you. But man, could you imagine if I was by myself, how long that would have freaking taken. So

Robb:

All right.

Tina Marie Garcia:

don't feel bad. You know, it worked hand in hand. It was a good thing. I couldn't imagine. I couldn't imagine having to do certain things that a man could, could do better

Robb:

Well,

Tina Marie Garcia:

than I could

Robb:

and...

Tina Marie Garcia:

because he was brought up to be that way.

Robb:

Well, and I don't think that if you're if you're downplaying something, it's you know, it plays into the perceived feminine weakness. Look, that we've been doing this for a long time. You know, vice versa. Would I downplay something I know I'm good at if it made my lady feel better? Of course I would in a second. Why not?

Tina Marie Garcia:

Yeah, but why do you want a woman that you have to downplay something to make her feel better?

Robb:

No, I-

Tina Marie Garcia:

That's kind of stupid too.

Robb:

No, but what I'm saying, but it's not toxic.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Ahem.

Robb:

Why not? It doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't hurt me.

Tina Marie Garcia:

No, it doesn't.

Robb:

What do I care?

Tina Marie Garcia:

Right.

Robb:

If I just go, eh, you know, I know how to do that. But if I do that, if I always say I do it and it's a hundred times, she's always gonna go, ah. All he ever tells me is he knows how to do it, or he does this, or it's okay. Look, you do have to be independent on some level. It's a balance. All this is a balance, and I think it's a yin and yang.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

There's nothing wrong, if you want to downplay something that you know how to do something to make your man feel like a man, and it's going to make everyone in the relationship better, why not do it? What does it matter? It makes no difference. It's no different than sometimes a man playing a quote unquote female role, right? Like cleaning the house or doing the dishes or cooking dinner, which are perceived as feminine roles. I don't think there's anything wrong with either one doing them. Or if I wouldn't do it, but if my lady wanted to mow the lawn, have at it. but I think that there's something that comes with it. Sometimes you have to downplay. There's an example. Would you tell your man, you know how to mow the lawn and it's Saturday and he just went out and got the mower out and he's about ready to start it, and you walk up and go, I can do that if you want. Or are you gonna sit back and go, let him do his stuff, let him go be the fucking gardener. It makes him, you know, he does it his way and there you have it. Are you really, are you downplaying your, are you downplaying it so much that it's a weakness? No, you're just giving the guy his guy thing. It's okay on both sides. I don't understand why, by... why these roles are so fucking reversed and so crazy right now. It's okay to be like that. I'd rather have a dainty girl. Go make me some fucking lemonade then and I'll mow the lawn. I think that that's

Tina Marie Garcia:

Now

Robb:

just

Tina Marie Garcia:

that's

Robb:

a...

Tina Marie Garcia:

toxic, Rob.

Robb:

Is it? Why?

Tina Marie Garcia:

Go make me some lemonade, I got

Robb:

maybe

Tina Marie Garcia:

this.

Robb:

she makes better lemonade in a sandwich. I'm not saying she

Tina Marie Garcia:

Ehh,

Robb:

has

Tina Marie Garcia:

that's

Robb:

to.

Tina Marie Garcia:

funny.

Robb:

I'm saying it's okay to do these different roles. It's not toxic. It's how societies were built. I don't I don't think it's that big of a deal. I just my thing is be careful what you wish for. You might just get it. If you if you want to play this independent I can do anything in the world. Good luck, because you're gonna find

Tina Marie Garcia:

right?

Robb:

a dude who's just gonna go do it all, and I'm gonna sit on the couch and don't bitch at me when I don't wanna put my controller down from playing games, because you're independent, you can do it all, you don't need me. And then sooner or later, she'll go, you're right, I don't need you. And then the next guy, the next guy, it's all gonna keep happening because men have to feel a place in somewhere. I saw a quote and I actually, I put it down here because I thought it was a very poignant. because I think it is. So here's, where's it at here? It says, don't give a man a place in the village and the man will burn it down to feel its warmth.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mmm.

Robb:

So be careful about that. And I think that's the same way, it's a reversal. If you don't give the woman a feminine place in the relationship, then she'll. find a way out of it until she finds the man who makes her feel feminine, assuming that's what she wants. But if you're independent and you get so independent that you don't need a man, you'll never have a man. So just be careful what you wish for. I don't wanna be, I play the role I play because I'm not in a relationship, but if I got into a relationship, I would want traditional gender roles because I think it works better in how I am. Not that we

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

can't share those things. I'd rather share making dinner than not. And I know some women get crazy with that, like, I don't need you in my kitchen, go somewhere else. It's like, well, wait a second. I wanna share making dinner time to communicate. Like, but some people are so bound and determined on things like, I cut this a certain way and I want it this way and this way. I've seen women get crazy in the kitchen. So I don't know. I think we're. We're going down a road that we gotta be careful. Here's one for you.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

Avoiding confrontation with men, since traditional gender norms dictate that women should be obedient and submissive, toxic effeminy can manifest as not challenging men when you disagree with them or when they do something that bothers you. There's something to answer. What do you feel about that? Should you confront men?

Tina Marie Garcia:

I don't know if it's something that's really bugging you, but there's, I think there's a time and a place to do that too. You know, say, hey, I, I would like to do this too. Do you think we could work on, you know, whatever it is, as opposed to, I'm doing something, get out of here. There's just a way to word it, you know?

Robb:

, you know, we're not talking: 1930

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm

Robb:

relationship.

Tina Marie Garcia:

hmm. But I don't even think if you have a good relationship and you're working your relationship, there doesn't need to be standing up. It's just like, hey, listen, let me let me tell you, you know, my side tell you, you could tell me your side. Let's find a way to meet in the middle.

Robb:

Correct.

Tina Marie Garcia:

It doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be you're wrong, you're right, you're whatever. It just has to be can we find a way to work together? And and you should pick someone that could work with you. And if they work with you, You don't have these problems. So it doesn't have to be, oh, I'm only going to do this or she's she could only do that because you're working together. You're you're coming up with a solution to keep things going and every all the needs get met.

Robb:

Mm-hmm,

Tina Marie Garcia:

I don't know.

Robb:

I agree.

Tina Marie Garcia:

I'm...

Robb:

Here's the last one for you because I think this is definitely gonna come out of the female side. It says judging other women or experiencing judgment from other women for not being feminine enough.

Tina Marie Garcia:

I've had that happen so many times, so many times.

Robb:

from another woman.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Oh yeah. I have cousins right now that say I'm too much Tina. I don't even know what the fuck that means to be honest with you, but I'm too much to the point where they won't even talk to me. But you know how I look at it? I'm like, you guys got your own shit that. I don't even need to be a part of like you've got issues if you're gonna say somebody's too much of who they are That doesn't make sense

Robb:

Well, yeah, but do you think that that's that are they saying that you're not feminine enough?

Tina Marie Garcia:

Yes, that's

Robb:

But,

Tina Marie Garcia:

I'm

Robb:

but.

Tina Marie Garcia:

too but I'm too much of a lot of things like I'm too. I'm too aggressive. I take control of things too much, especially like in the family aspect. I'm the matriarch of the family. We have I have a couple of aunts that are older, but everybody calls me. What are we doing for Christmas? What are we doing for this? Somebody needs to make a damn decision and they drive me crazy because they won't. So I've become the matriarch of the family because I'll just say, yeah, let's do this. Yeah, let's do that. And it's normally like, hey, I was thinking this. What do you think? Let's do it. I don't care to have that role though.

Robb:

Right, but are they pushing saying that like, and I guess maybe that's within women with each other, because I can't see, like I don't think you'll ever hear you're not feminine enough from a man. in the beginning of a relationship. You either are or you're not, and then he'll bail right away.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

If he's looking for someone who is feminine or wants certain things, like, hey, I'd like you to dress. this way or wear more makeup or you're going to weed out people quickly. Now

Tina Marie Garcia:

Hmm.

Robb:

I think maybe in a relationship of many, many years where at the end of your relationship or when a woman gets a little older, she's less likely to put makeup on every day or less likely to do this. That might be the only time you heard like, yeah, you're really, you're slipping and not being you'll know right away because he'll just go away. Women,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

I'm sure it is because there's going to be both sides of that where a woman who is more traditional in her thinking is going to say like, you know. I think it might get thrown around more with if a woman could be complaining about her man or maybe not finding someone. Let's say, and again, this is all. tongue and cheek and I don't know if it happens, but I'm seeing how it could. Let's say all your friends go out to, there's five girls who go to the bar and the one girl who's least feminine doesn't get hit on or maybe didn't have makeup on that night, blah blah. A girl might go, you might wanna come next time a little more dolled up, if that's what you're looking for. Like, if you're... That's where the only way I can see that, because guys aren't like that with each other. Toxic masculinity with each other

Tina Marie Garcia:

I don't think

Robb:

is...

Tina Marie Garcia:

guys care though. I think...

Robb:

No, no,

Tina Marie Garcia:

I don't

Robb:

I think

Tina Marie Garcia:

think

Robb:

they

Tina Marie Garcia:

guys

Robb:

care.

Tina Marie Garcia:

care though really. If a girl has no makeup on, her hair's in a bun, and she's dressed kind of a tomboyish, but she carries herself as a woman, guys won't notice the rest of the stuff.

Robb:

No, but what I'm saying is like, well, I disagree with that. I think guys would. In a group of women, in a second. If you're

Tina Marie Garcia:

Yeah, I

Robb:

into

Tina Marie Garcia:

get that.

Robb:

that look, you're going to go towards the people who are like that, even though the girl who might

Tina Marie Garcia:

Oh yeah.

Robb:

not have on makeup and has got a hair in her bun might doll up awesome. Look. There's a girl who I've seen both sides of her, right? I've seen her dolled up, going to a wedding. I've also seen her fresh out of bed with no makeup on and they're both just as good because it's how I see her mind over. how I see her looks. So I think there's something to that. But on a surface level, I think girls would probably do that to each other. If I could see girls be like, who invited her? Because girls can be nasty when it comes to that kind of stuff. But I don't think that it's a toxic femininity thing. I think it's just how, because I think guys could do the same. I'm sure if a bunch of guys were going clubbing and the one guy who was dressed more down, Would probably get shit on within his male friends, but not on the same kind of level They'd be like

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

bro. Really you showed up like that. Well, good luck. You're not gonna get no women tonight That's all they would say and they wouldn't Bash in the rest of night. I don't think that's toxic either like, you know more power to you. You're you're You're going to attract with whatever you're fishing with however you want to put that. But I don't

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

think it's a toxic thing to say, hey, you might want to do that. I guess it all matters within who you're with. You shouldn't judge anyone, but I don't think that, saying that you're... If you say you're not feminine enough, that's just somebody who leads a more traditional role and more power to you. It's going to happen. This whole discussion is, we're fighting with. What is it that you see in society and might work better? Like the toxic masculinity one we did. I think that just works better in society. I think it's not even being toxic, it's just being masculine. And it's worked

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

for thousands of years and it continues to work today. If we start emasculating men, we're going to have people who won't fight for anything and they're just going to sit back. And what are they gonna do? They're gonna look towards the women and they're gonna go, no, we're feminine. It's like going to war. Do you really want women in war? I mean, on the front lines with guns. Ah.

Tina Marie Garcia:

I don't, I, I don't personally want to

Robb:

I

Tina Marie Garcia:

be

Robb:

don't.

Tina Marie Garcia:

in that position ever.

Robb:

I

Tina Marie Garcia:

So

Robb:

just don't...

Tina Marie Garcia:

I don't, but

Robb:

Look, men have gone to die in war since the dawn of time with rocks and shields and swords and it moved to guns. Why we leave, why we left the women at home is because we could leave our seed behind and they could raise someone to fill our place.

Tina Marie Garcia:

That okay, but in like tribal times, men went off to bring back food and women had to protect the whole society, you know, all the women, all the kids, all of the all of the elders and they were fierce warriors as well. But that

Robb:

They were,

Tina Marie Garcia:

what?

Robb:

but not on the same level. Usually they left men behind who were good at fighting or protecting that, but wouldn't be good on the hunt or younger men. And I'm not to say that women weren't fighters, but it was very rare. There's only a few

Tina Marie Garcia:

Not

Robb:

tribes

Tina Marie Garcia:

in tribal

Robb:

that we've

Tina Marie Garcia:

times.

Robb:

found it. Sure, even in Viking

Tina Marie Garcia:

No.

Robb:

times, there were women who fought, but. Tribal times, even the African women who are known for that, it was still, yes, I don't wanna, it's semantics, I don't wanna get too deep into it, but the women were, yes, they would protect, but that wasn't their main focus in life. The men, there were men who stayed behind, or elder men who would die way before women would. I'm not saying, look, I think that's semantics. We can get on either side of that. But for the world, it's worked for this long. I just think it's a

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

very slippery slope of getting rid of either one of those, masculine men or feminine women. You're going to push people away from each other to where we stop breeding and we stop... People will die out

Tina Marie Garcia:

It's already

Robb:

and again

Tina Marie Garcia:

happening.

Robb:

Yeah, well in this in this country it is the birth rates in this country are Well, well below they were 25 years ago 30

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

years ago 50 years ago. It's even worse It's they're well below only in the Western countries like Britain, Australia here Some parts of Europe the rest of this planet. They're fine. They're still we're making children in other places I just think that we have to be careful with calling either side of this toxic, whether it's masculinity or femininity. It's a dangerous thing in society. Look. And either one. No one wants to say, I'm good, I don't need a woman. And no one wants to say, I'm good, I don't need a man. I think we're yin and yang, we work well together, we have for a long time. It's a dangerous, dangerous thing, at least in how I see it. And the person who brought this up to me was kind of doing the same thing, because she's definitely from a more traditional background. the world from a traditional standpoint, that she sees it in her kids and around them that things are changing and maybe changing for the worse.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm.

Robb:

So,

Tina Marie Garcia:

I agree with that.

Robb:

you know, I don't want to shit on people who have a progressive outlook. I just think that you have to be careful about being so much that you don't need certain things or tradition doesn't work anymore. You have to be very careful to wish for something because like I said, you might just get it.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Mm-hmm. I agree.

Robb:

Well, we're way ahead on this one because we can blow hard. Anything else at the end of this?

Tina Marie Garcia:

I personally would just say don't get caught up in The extremes find a happy medium kind of live in a world where you don't have to struggle and Hate on somebody for being who they are if you're kind of in the middle you give me in the middle you could find a good place where everybody could flourish and I think that that's a That's the way it should be Because we do have roles. We are genetically made certain ways and we kind of have to quit saying that that's bad on any level.

Robb:

Perfect. Again, a home run at the end here, Miss Tina. I'm glad I don't have to say anything else.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Good. I'm glad.

Robb:

Check out our socials, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or X, whatever it's called now. Check us out on the podcasting places like Apple, Spotify, Google. I Heart Radio,

Tina Marie Garcia:

Amazon.

Robb:

tons of different ones, Amazon. Make sure you go on there and leave a rating, please. That helps us with algorithms and you can leave five stars, four stars, whatever it is, and leave a little message behind. And look, it's an opinion show, so don't get it twisted. Don't get mad at us. Keep coming back and listening every Wednesday. Until next week, for my co-host, as always, Tina, I am Rob, and we'll talk to you later. Bye, Tina.

Tina Marie Garcia:

Have a good one.